Kubrick’s Shining: What Really Happened in Rm 237

Published by The Editor at April 8, 2013

Stanley Kubrick is one of the greatest film directors the world has ever known. Films like “Full Metal Jacket,” “2001: A Space Odyssey,” “A Clockwork Orange” and “Dr Strangelove” are not only in the top 10 lists of countless filmmakers, critics and fans, but they are studied in film schools worldwide. For decades now, Kubrick’s “The Shining,” has also been the subject of lengthy debate and analysis. The new documentary, “Room 237” examines a series of theories about the true meaning and message of “The Shining.” The film’s director, Rodney Ascher, and producer Tim Kirk stopped by the SiriusXM studios to talk with Ron Bennington about the documentary. Excerpts of the interview appear below.

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Ron Bennington: “Room 237” is out. There is something about “The Shining” that people have never been able to let go of, have they? It’s just something about that film.

Rodney Ascher: It’s a trap.

Tim Kirk: 33 years later, it’s still grabbing people.

Ron Bennington: Why is it though you think? I was just bringing this up. It was never even one of my favorite Kubrick films. If I was making a list of my favorite Kubrick films, it would be further down the list, but I think it’s this and “2001” are probably one of his most talked about.

Rodney Ascher: Yeah well, “The Shining” just seems to be a movie that people are drawn back to again and again and again. Even if it’s just because the end doesn’t quite make sense. And you want to go back and try to get your head around the implication of that black and white photo at the end. But as you’re watching it, there’s so many strange choices and so many weird hypnotic moments that you just kind of fall into and get lost every time.

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Tim and Rodney Talk About The Genesis of the Documentary

Ron Bennington: So, what brought this together? You and the folks who have these theories about “The Shining”.

Tim Kirk: Well, when I initially saw the film, I wouldn’t say it was my favorite either, but it was the film I watched the most over and over and over again. And then, when we started looking around, I happened to find this very compelling essay online with this really astounding theory about “The Shining” and it’s hidden meanings. And I immediately showed it to Rodney because we’re both huge Kubrick fans. And we started looking around and we found more and more and more. And so, we were sort of off to the races and making this film – which studies, at this point, 5…we talk to 5 people that have 5 very distinct takes on the film.

Rodney Ascher: As soon as you start reading this stuff, it makes the hair on the back of your neck just kind of stand up. I mean “The Shining” has always seemed like a puzzle that’s been difficult to crack. And when these solutions start to come together, it’s so exciting, but also kind of eerie. A lot of these things, I would find really disturbing and might be reading them at 2 or 3 in the morning and it would feel like I had opened up the book of a Necronomicon and getting access to this sort of forbidden knowledge. And that was a feeling that was just very very exciting.

Ron Bennington: But do you think that this is a “Shining” obsession or do these people have a Kubrick obsession? Because the clues seem to be about what goes on in Stanley Kubrick’s mind and I think that’s what people are most obsessed about.

Rodney Ascher: Yeah. Well certainly, the idea that Kubrick is a genius and that you would have to look at “The Shining” based on what you know of him in his past work, in his own passions and interests and the kind of perfectionist that he is – factors a lot into it.

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Rodney Talks About People Projecting Themselves Into Kubrick and his Films

Ron Bennington: Well, you brought up the fact that he didn’t do a lot of interviews and people didn’t see him around. In today’s world, that even makes him more interesting. The fact that he didn’t tweet or the way that we feel about Steven Spielberg is – we know the guy. We feel like we know him. We know where he came from. We know what he thought about his mom. He’s a personality. Kubrick – maybe the thing is that it’s somewhat of a reflection of us. Maybe each person views him a little bit different, that’s why you get so many of the different theories that you have in your film.

Rodney Ascher: Well absolutely. And I know that the people we talked to all recognized qualities of themselves within him. Qualities that maybe in his case, that he sort of perfected. And I know, like while I was working on the film, I was teaching an editing class. So I was thinking a lot about his editing choices in the way that he would edit films. And think of him through that lens and sort of as the most accomplished use of that language. And I had that conversation with one of the guys who composed our soundtrack. And he’s like – that’s funny, because I always think of Kubrick as the world’s greatest music supervisor. And clearly, if you think about the way he’s used music over the years, it’s pretty amazing. And “Also sprach Zarathustra” is forever more going to be known as the theme from “2001: A Space Odyssey”.

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Looking at Other Films, Other Directors

Ron Bennington: It’s “Room 237”. You’re releasing this On Demand at the same time that it goes out in theaters. I saw it in a theater, but I think it’s great for the people where they can’t get to some of these theaters to be able to see this at the same time. It’s also a fun thing to sit around and think to yourself – are there any other movies that you could play this game with? Do we have a new Kubrick? Are we going to be looking back at Terrence Malick films years from now? Is there anybody else out there like that, do you think?

Tim Kirk: I don’t know. I know for Rodney and me it would be hard to find another filmmaker that we would want to spend 2 years delving into their work. Within Kubrick’s work, “Eyes Wide Shut” is really a comer. There’s a lot being written about that right now. And people are finding a lot of interesting things within that film.

Rodney Ascher: And well certainly “Mulholland Drive” has generated a lot of this kind of stuff. Not as much as “The Shining”, but there’s a good amount. And that movie…well even in David Lynch’s work in general – rewards deeper study. They’re kind of interesting polar opposites. I think of David Lynch as someone who’s much more open to chance and accident than Kubrick, who’s much more about a steady battle plan. Although, of course I’ve read things about doing take after take after take to allow unusual surprises in. So it could be that there’s more similarities than it might appear on the surface.

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Tim and Rodney Talk About Some of the Theories in “Room 237”

Ron Bennington: Do any of the theories make more sense to you more than the other ones? Is there anyone that you got that you guys lean back to and go – yeah, this one, I think I could run with a little bit?

Rodney Ascher: Well, I get especially excited when they start to overlap.

Ron Bennington: That was insane. That was absolutely…because I’m ready to say – bullshit. Time and time again, I’m always ready to say “bullshit” on it and yet, I’m like – how could that go down that way?

Rodney Ascher: If you watch that entire thing, it’s juxtaposition after juxtaposition after juxtaposition. When Jack says to Lloyd the bartender – women, you can’t live with them, you can’t live without them – you see the nude women from Room 237 floating into the shot. It just gives you the chills.

Tim Kirk: Yeah. John Fell Ryan staged a screening of the film forwards and backwards at the same time. And I guess they’re doing it next week in Brooklyn. They’re going to be doing it again.

Ron Bennington: Is that right?

Tim Kirk: Yeah. I think at the Spectacle Theater. And it’s amazing. It sounds like just a one off goof, but it really…if you watch the whole film, it really works. I mean it works as an entire film.

Ron Bennington: But in a…obviously, it’s a completely different way. (Rodney and Tim laugh) When you’re saying it works – what the hell does that even mean after awhile? Other than keeping you in this very strange state. Like “Dark Side of the Oz” did, or whatever? Is that what they call that? “Dark Side of the Oz”? Yeah.

Rodney Ascher: Yeah. Well, I mean that thing’s cool. And I thought a lot about that. Although, it’s unlikely that Pink Floyd sat down and created “The Dark Side of the Moon” as an alternate soundtrack to the “Wizard of Oz”.

Ron Bennington: I had one night where I was pretty sure they did though. (Rodney and Tim laugh)

Rodney Ascher: But they do line up and it’s kind of chilling. I think to myself – well, is that a total accident or does it say something maybe about the patterns that people fall into and people have been telling stories for a long time. And maybe there’s sort of a natural rhythm that’s evolved. And then maybe 5 minutes in, there’s a little complication. At 12 minutes, things turn around. At a half hour, you kind of hit bottom or something like that. That frequently enough, those patterns will just kind of enter stuff one way or another.

Ron Bennington: But also, I think it talks about us and what we’re willing to do to find patterns. And this of course will piss off some people because you can go out and…this is why I think a lot of chess players I think become mad and mathematicians and physicists because they’ll spend so much time looking for patterns. Some people love to sit around and discuss this stuff and other people become mad if they think…it almost feels like trickery to them if he’s telling a story on a couple of different levels.

Rodney Ascher: Yeah. I mean clearly people work on multiple levels. Even kids movies usually have some jokes for the parents. So you’re working on two levels for two audiences that might get things. And an artsy horror movie is going to work for at least two different kinds of people. There’s a phrase that I came across that’s kind of appropriate, which is that – the mind is a machine for recognizing patterns. Though, maybe it’s also one for making patterns. In the point where this whole thing, and we’re talking about “The Shining” inparticular, starts to get really complicated is…it isn’t as if these people are analyzing a random object like a cloud formation – what they’re looking at is a meticulously constructed work of art that has mostly come from a single person’s intelligence. So, we keep going back to – are we projecting something on a random pattern or are you catching something that was a reference that was meant just for you? But people will drop a “Star Wars” joke into some regular conversations. “I’ve got a bad feeling about this”. And people that are into “Star Wars” will get it. So if Stanley Kubrick drops Kipling into the bar scene – people who are familiar with his stuff go – oh, he’s saying something about colonialism. That’s interesting. (laughs)

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Ron Bennington: I think the thing that he left behind…Kubrick left behind is that he didn’t want us to totally understand. I mean obviously he could have made the most straight forward films that anyone ever wanted to do, but he wanted to make the films in these ways. He wanted to leave it open ended. And I think one of the fun things of playing with your film is when you start to see that and then go – but why else would that be there? Why the hell else is that in the film? Room237.com to check it out. It’s getting a terrible a lot of buzz. Thanks so much guys. And best of luck with it. And I’ll see you next time coming through.

Rodney Ascher: Well thanks. Great to talk to you Ron.

Tim Kirk: Thank you. Absolutely.

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[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOxukprEwjg]

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