Paul Williams, Better Than Ever
Academy Award winning composer and songwriter Paul Williams has written and composed an incredible list of memorable hit songs. His versatile songwriting credits range from the unforgettable “Rainbow Connection” written for the Muppet Movie, to “Fill Your Heart with Love” for David Bowie, several great songs for The Carpenters, a recent collaboration with Daft Punk, and of course, he won the Oscar for the song “Evergreen” from the movie “A Star is Born.” That list only scratches the surface of Williams’ musical accomplishments, and he’s also a talented actor, author, and director. He stopped by the SiriusXM studios this week to talk with Ron Bennington about his career, and the release of “The Nearly 35th Anniversary Edition of the Muppet Movie.” A few excerpts from the interview appear below, and you can hear the interview in its entirety exclusively on SiriusXM satellite radio.
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Ron Bennington: “The Nearly 35th Anniversary Edition of The Muppet Movie”, which makes everyone feel old.
Paul Williams: And how perfectly muppet-y that it’s the “Nearly,” not the 35th, but the “Nearly 35th”
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Paul Williams Talks About Writing The Songs For “The Muppet Movie”
Ron Bennington: When you go back and listen to these songs, do you think about recording them or do you think about the writing process?
Paul Williams: I think about the writing process, most of the time. But, most of the songs I’m not there when they are being recorded. With The Muppet Movie, because I produced the album and wrote the songs with Kenny Ascher, I have both memories. I have the memory of sitting down with Kenny Ascher, Kenny and I wrote “The Rainbow Connection” and we had everything except the title. (singing) ‘Someday we’ll find it, da da da da da da / The lovers, the dreamers and me / Someday we’ll find it…’ and my wife at the time said, “What are you looking for?” I said, “Well, there is a connection with rainbows that we’re looking for. Kermit is sitting out there, there is a rainbow he has a connection with it, there’s a rainbow connection, we can’t find it…” We said “rainbow connection” probably nine times before she finally said, “So you’re looking for the rainbow connection,” and when she said it, we heard it as the title. So, that’s one of the great moments where we ran away from the dining room table and she says, “Where are you going?” We said, “We’re going to go write down that title.” So, that I think about, but I also remember going into the studio with Jim [Henson], and Jim singing “The Rainbow Connection” and it not working.
Ron Bennington: Really?
Paul Williams: There was something just a little off and I actually and the audacity to say to Jim, “I would actually like Kermit to sing it, do you think you want to get Kermit?” And he went, “yeah, good idea.” And he went and got Kermit. We put the lights down low in the studio, and Kermit sang it, he had Kermit with him, and it was – I think we did it in one take.
Ron Bennington: But that’s the interesting thing, I think, I wonder if that’s because you had the acting background to know that he wasn’t totally in character yet.
Paul Williams: Yeah, I think that the fact that I wanted to be an actor, I wanted to be somebody else, mainly. I was a weird little guy and I wanted to be some other weird little guy. I think that the acting had a huge influence on probably my song writing as well. I think that there was a connectedness to the emotion that acting out what I was feeling was kind of part of the writing process.
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Paul Williams Talks About Songwriting For The Muppets After Getting Sober
Ron Bennington: Did you ever think that it’s the character writing the song? Do you write from a character point of view?
Paul Williams: I’m twenty-three years sober and the world is a safer place. When I was newly sober the first thing that I was given a chance to write was the songs for “The Muppet Christmas Carol” which is a perfect first project for somebody just getting sober because you’ve had a spiritual awakening and you’re going to write songs for a movie about a guy named Scrooge, who is going to have a spiritual awakening. So you’re writing about – I was writing about who I thought I really was, and it was the first time where I actually totally got out of the way and allowed my unconscious to do the writing. It’s an interesting process, because I’m looking at the first song that is required and it’s Scrooge’s “I Am” song. We see his feet coming out of a building, we see him as he’s walking along, and as he goes by these little characters like Rizzo the Rat and such, everyone gets colder as he goes by. And I literally said – I had read the original Dickens “A Christmas Carol”, I had read the script that Jerry Juhl had written for “The Muppet Christmas” Carol, I looked at the song, I looked at the scene and I basically sat down and said, “Alright, unconscious when you have an idea, let me know. Big Amigo, or whoever is up there doing the writing, when you have an idea, let me know.” I picked up a Lawrence Block murder mystery and I started reading the mystery and about three pages in, without even consciously thinking about it, I put the book down and I went, “Ok, he’s walking, (singing) ‘Ba, da, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, ba da bump / When a cold wind blows it chills you / Chills you to the bone / But, there’s nothing in nature that freezes your heart / Like years of being alone,’ I went, “Oh, that’s not too bad, you guys.” And it’s like, I know that my unconscious was writing it, I know that I was part of the creative process. But, the longer I’m alive the more I feel that there is sort of this connectedness to spirit or creative process. I mean, you’ve got to feel it as well.
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Paul Williams Talks About His Sobriety
Ron Bennington: But, you brought up the sobriety…do you feel like that made you a better writer, or at least more appreciative of what was happening?
Paul Williams: I’m writing a book called, “Gratittude and Trust: Recovery is Not Just for Addicts”, with a friend Tracey Jackson. We have a website called gratittudeandtrust.com, I think that getting sober made everything in my life better. First of all, the world is a safer place with Paul Williams in the car with the vodka and the cocaine out of his system. But, the fact is, everything in my life – that spiritual journey effects everything – clear vision. The longer I’m sober, the less I feel…the best parts of my life, I feel they are all a gift. I think that is something we can pass on and share with everybody.
Ron Bennington: It’s so interesting because I’ve had this conversation before with people that aren’t addicts and sometimes it seems like if you did some of the work, you find yourself feeling ecstasy in places that you didn’t feel ecstasy before – nature or whatever. I think it’s fantastic. So, you’re really writing this book for people who aren’t necessarily…?
Paul Williams: Exactly, you know Tracey Jackson said, “It’s amazing, look at your life you were face down in your own spew and now you’re the President and Chairman of the Board of ASCAP. What happened in your life? You’re so awake, what happened?” So, I didn’t want to rewrite the process that I had used to get sober, but we started talking about wouldn’t it be wonderful if there was something you could create to pass on to people with certain principles that were similar. We started out with writing affirmations, and affirmations that would be action affirmations. The first one is: Something needs to change and it’s probably me. The second one is: I don’t know how to do this, but something inside me does. The third one is: I will learn from my mistakes and not defend them. Basically, what we’re creating is not for the person with the life threatening disease of alcoholism or addiction, but somebody whether they are picking the wrong mate again and again and again, if they’re a gossip, if they are in a victim mode, if they have a variety of life-limiting habits. So, we made a deal with Penguin, we deliver the book in March and it’ll be out next year.
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Paul Williams Talks About Harry Nilsson
Ron Bennington: When I think of your writing, another writer that I’m sure you know very well, Harry Nilsson, I always think of you guys as a one-two punch. When I hear your music, sometimes I’m like, either one of those guys could have written that song.
Paul Williams: That’s a great compliment, thank you. I loved Harry, and I actually wrote a song called, “Nilsson sings Newman” because I’m trying to tell Harry how much I loved him and he’s going, “No, no, no, no this is the guy playing all this Randy Newman for me.” Harry was sober when he died, but he drank that really sweet, sweet brandy endlessly and I don’t think he ever exercised a day in his life. (laughing) I don’t think he ever moved. But, I loved him. Brilliant writer.
Ron Bennington: Fantastic writer, because “The Point!” and “Bugsy Malone” were always two pieces of work that – and it’s almost the same time that you guys were doing that.
Paul Williams: Well, The Point! was a little earlier (singing) ‘Well me and my arrow / Straight up and narrow’ – everything he wrote was just – the Aerial Ballet, and Pandemonium Shadow Show those two albums, his first two records, and The Point! were all just plain brilliant.
Ron Bennington: Yeah, just genius stuff and when you go back and see this stuff, it’s amazing that you can write these sweet, beautiful songs and be somewhat of an unhappy guy.
Paul Williams: Oh yeah, he was edgy. I had this conversation with Jimmy Webb, that I had done “The Match Game”, and I loved “The Match Game”, there was something kind of edgy and intellectual about – what was her name she was married to Jack [Klugman]? You know who I mean. And Charles Nelson Reilly were regulars on the show and so the phone rings and I’m in my den and it’s Harry and it’s about 11 o’clock at night and we’re talking and he said, ‘What are you doing?” I said, “I just got back, I just did The Match Game”. It’s like the Algonquin of the game shows. And he went, “You bastard, how dare you, you son of a…” click. And he hangs up on me. So, I went – that’s interesting. He was obviously drunk and I probably was, too. A couple of days later he calls and asks me about something and I said, “I thought you were mad at me.” He said, “What are you talking about?” I said, “Well, you hung up on me…” then we just went on. I shared that story with Jimmy Webb and he said, “Oh, he did it with all of us. There was nothing unique in your experience with Harry. He would do that with all of us.”
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Paul Williams Talks About First Getting Sober
Ron Bennington: How long was the sobriety around before you started to feel comfortable with it?
Paul Williams: Oh, I was on fire with it. I went to UCLA did their certification process as a drug and alcohol counselor. I entered, what I refer to as the “Pauly Lama” period of my life. I was just, “Touch the hem and I will strike you sober.” I loved it immediately. I think that it was probably five years or so into the deal where all of a sudden I really began to look at even my childhood. I went to nine schools by the time I was in the ninth grade, my dad was killed when I was thirteen and I was shipped off to live with an aunt and uncle, so, I lost both parents. I had this horribly sad childhood and felt none of it, and I looked at it, maybe five years sober, I looked at my childhood and I went, “Oh my God! Why weren’t you sad?” I mean, long before I drank like an alcoholic, I acted like one. I just didn’t feel it, I just got this glazed look on my eyes and I was fine – I was fine. And about five years sober, I went, “Boy, there is stuff to feel there, and there is stuff to process.”
Ron Bennington: I think it was probably smart of that kid to numb out until he could get old enough.
Paul Williams: Exactly. Most adult children of alcoholics will look at their childhood – I mean, I remember driving in a car with my dad when I felt like my concentration was keeping the car on the road because he was so drunk. Again, that’s probably the birthplace of grandiosity for me. Rather than look at the fact that I was at the mercy of somebody who was not equipped to be my parent, rather than to deal with that, I just gave myself power. I could concentrate on the road and keep the car on the road. I think a lot of little boys do that.
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Ron Bennington: It’s so great to have you stop in and be able to talk about this stuff. When does the book come out?
Paul Williams: The book with Penguin will be out in the Fall of 2014, we deliver in March. But the website is gratitudeandtrust.com, and my Twitter account is @IMPaulWilliams, and I am totally addicted now to social media, I love it.
Ron Bennington: Because it keeps you connected all the time.
Paul Williams: Keeps you connected, yeah. So, all of a sudden I’m talking to Edgar Wright, or Big Kenny of Big and Rich, guys like that, it’s interesting and it’s a way to build a readership for the book, which is really a labor of love.
Ron Bennington: Well, I can’t wait. And it’s, The Nearly 35th Anniversary Edition of The Muppet Movie, so great to have a chance to talk to you.
Paul Williams: What a treat. Sober brother.
Ron Bennington: You’re one of the people I look to, in all honesty.
Paul Williams: God bless. That’s fantastic.
Ron Bennington: I’ll see you next time.
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Follow Paul Williams on Twitter @IMPaulWilliams and visit gratitudeandtrust.com.
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You can hear this interview in its entirety exclusively on SiriusXM satellite radio. Not yet a subscriber? Click here for a free trial subscription.
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You can learn more about Ron Bennington’s two interview shows, Unmasked and Ron Bennington Interviews at RonBenningtonInterviews.com.
