Peter Hook: Unknown Pleasures

Published by The Editor at February 8, 2013

Musician and singer Peter Hook was one of the founding members of the post-punk band Joy Division which later re-formed as New Order after the death of lead singer Ian Curts. He is currently lead vocalist and bassist for Peter Hook and The Light. Peter recently stopped by the SiriusXM studios to talk with Ron Bennington about his new book, “Unknown Pleasures: Inside Joy Division.”

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Ron Bennington: The band was together for how long?

Peter Hook: Two and a half years, start to finish.

Ron Bennington: Only two and a half years.

Peter Hook: Yeah, that was one of the things that surprised me when I did the book. Was how short your career was and literally we were professional – if you can call $20 a week professional – for five months, six months before Ian died. So it was a very short period of time and a hell of a legacy and impact to have from a band that was so short.

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Peter Hook on Young Songwriters

Ron Bennington: Well in reading your book you quoted – I think it was Peter Saville who you quoted –about how the best writing takes place before people become professional and understand how to do it.

Peter Hook: Yes, and the reason he felt there is that when you’re young you’re happy to make mistakes. And don’t even dwell on it. And as you get more established as a songwriter, you learn how to do it. And then you worry about mistakes. And it is actually true. You become very careful.

Ron Bennington: Well I never thought of that before, but it was actually the part of the book — that I actually put it down for a while and started to go through every band that I’ve ever loved. And at a certain point, they become clever enough and good enough at the rules that they pick up a mass audience. But kind of lose those people that love them so much at the beginning.

Peter Hook: They lose the energy and the edge is what Peter Saville felt. And he felt that that was the problem with most modern musicians. Most older musicians. And when you think about it, it’s actually quite a frightening thing to realize. But probably absolutely true, because we used to go in and we’d go, “Right, play that note and that note. Sounds a bit odd doesn’t it? But I like it.” Now as New Order, shall we say, last year when we were doing “Waiting For the Siren’s Call”, “Well that sounds a bit odd, no we won’t do that.”

Ron Bennington: Yeah, you won’t do that…

Peter Hook: Can’t put a B flat with a C. You can’t do it. It says in the rules you can’t do it. Now the thing about punk was, it was all about re-writing the rules. And doing whatever you wanted to do.

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Peter Hook Talks About Not Realizing How Good Their Songs Were

Ron Bennington: How much older was Martin Hannett than the guys in Joy Division?

Peter Hook: He was probably about 10 years older.

Ron Bennington: Yeah, and that ten years is enormous at that age.

Peter Hook: Yes, yes, oh yes.

Ron Bennington: Because it’s the difference between being a kid and somebody who has been around a little bit.

Peter Hook: Martin had a vision and as he said, quite rightly in interviews that he did, “Joy Division were a gift. Because the songs were so fantastic.” And his thing was that we didn’t realize how fantastic they were. And that was absolutely true, we didn’t. We didn’t care.

Ron Bennington: So how do you think you missed almost, at least consciously, the fact that this genius thing was going on? Something that would outlive that entire era.

Peter Hook: We weren’t doing it for money. We weren’t doing it for success. We were just doing it because we felt that it was the right thing to do. It was the most exciting thing – when I went into that Sex Pistols gig, I went into it completely normally. I had a 9 to 5 job. My weekends were my own, I was just going out drinking with my friends. Very, very simple life. And I walked out a musician, which is amazing to me now when I view it. And I’m still a musician 35 years later, and that is a struggle. To be a musician, even in this day and age, is a struggle. Constant struggle. Musicians now have to be very, very clever. You know, we had record companies looking after us in the 80s and 90s. Now these poor devils have just got to look after themselves. You’ve got to be very, very canny at business, as well as music, to survive now. Whereas we were just happy and let’s get on with the music. And people used to look after the business for us. You know, that’s changed so much. But no, it’s about survival really. That call that you got that Johnny Rotten introduced you to at that concert was actually quite irrational. What he was asking, and what he inspired you to do, was the most difficult thing I’ve ever done in my life. And yet it felt like a pleasure, and still feels like a pleasure now.

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Peter Hook Talks About the Sex Pistols

Ron Bennington: It’s another part of the book that you do such a great job of capturing– what it felt like that your life had changed so much over the course of really only a half hour concert. Because the Sex Pistols, at that time, weren’t able to do much more than that. And yet you weren’t looking for much more than that at the time.

Peter Hook: No, it was – I had been to see Led Zeppelin probably a couple of weeks before at the Hard Rock in Stratford, in Manchester. And I didn’t look at Led Zeppelin and think, I can do that. I went to see the Sex Pistols, I watched Johnny Rotten for about 2 minutes and thought not only could I do that but I’m desperate to do that. And what was it? He was just screaming at you. It was just the most ridiculous anarchic thing I had ever seen. He seemed to revel in disrupting, you know, inspiring you in a way that you didn’t like. It really was shocking what he was doing to you.

And I must admit that a 21 year old, coming out of my teenage years, that confusion and rebellion that you always hold. When you want to change the world, but don’t know how to do it. That was what I saw. I can change my world, and your world with that. And it was also something wonderful about being obnoxious. I loved his refusal to play the game and, you know, this complete opposite of Led Zeppelin. It was a mad thing. And for me and Bernard to go in there together. And for then for me and Bernard to become the wonderful musicians that we have become, and achieve as much as we have become, in that field. To be inspired by Johnny Rotten screaming, “Fuck off!” at you. It does seem a little bizarre.

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Peter Hook on Factory Records

Ron Bennington: It is bizarre, and yet, there have been bands that can go out and cause other people to, you know, want to start bands. I don’t think anyone has ever seen Pink Floyd and thought, I can do that. You know what I mean? I can do that.

Peter Hook: There is a feel that you get. And one of the wonderful things I loved about Joy Division being on Factory was that the awkwardness and the devilment that you were able to indulge in was very, very true to the punk ethos. Of do it yourself, be true to yourself, treat other people how you want to be treated. You know, show respect, but in a very anarchic fashion. The Sex Pistols you’d have to say musically, weren’t very far removed from Eddie and the Hot Rods, The 101ers, you know, it was quite rock and roll based music.

Ron Bennington: Really Chuck Berry-ish.

Peter Hook: The difference was Johnny Rotten and his attitude, and Malcolm McLaren’s attitude as well. And the whole thing about the marriage of fashion with music. And we sort of managed to do it in a different way. We stood back from the music. Didn’t push the personality, we let the music speak for itself. We gave Peter Saville free reign to use very, very emotive graphics. Very strong graphic image, and the band stood back. So the music became more important, which helped us. And Tony Wilson was a great visionary in the way that he looked at things completely different. Because he wasn’t interested in money. Even when it got to – when he was really seriously ill, when he was suffering from his liver cancer, his kidney cancer. He wasn’t interested in money. It was the strangest thing for people to have ideas and ideals. It’s quite rare. Because you do think that everybody is just doing it for commercial reasons in a way. And we never did that.

And it’s one of the funny things about – being a musician is one of the only jobs that you can do where it can be hurled as an insult to you. Which Bernard has done to me quite recently, that you’re doing it for the money. You wouldn’t look at a taxi driver and go, “He’s only doing it for the money.” Because they’ll go, “Of course he’s doing it for the money. What do you expect him to do it for you idiot?” But as a musician you are sort of deemed to be above it really. And it’s one of the funny things is that I made my living as a musician. And probably always will do hopefully, with a bit of luck. (laughs)

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Peter Hook on Caring About the Art of Music

Ron Bennington: Well what’s also interesting too, Peter, is like the hippies talked about that kind of thing – of we’re just doing it for the art. But here the punks were actually doing it. Without so much talking about it, we’re just living that. And not only as a band, but here’s Tony Wilson with the record company and The Hacienda, all these things just came together.

Peter Hook: We did some absolutely wonderful things. Not knowing what we were doing. And the weird thing was, when you look back on it, Tony was not interested in business. It used to bore him. I remember one Hacienda meeting we had where the guy, the accountant, started talking about projections and business plan. And Tony stood up outraged, “Get out! I will not have anybody talk like that at one of my meetings.” And threw him out. And yet, we were all like, “Yay! Go on!” And of course five years later you’re bankrupt and owing $18 million. But the thing is, is that it’s about enjoying what you do as you do it.

Ron Bennington: Yeah, the experience.

Peter Hook: And we really did change the world so many ways. You know, New Order. And we were all guilty, shall we say, of it. (laughs) We all planned not to think it out. We didn’t think about anything that we were doing. And even something as ridiculous to say for New Order is doing the English World Cup song. You know, the football song, which was our only number one ironically. It was the devil in you that made you do it, “Oh yeah, that would be a really wacky thing for us to do.” Because we’re New Order. Nobody would expect that. And that’s what I loved about Tony, and Rob Gretton, our manager as Joy Division and New Order – was that they came from that business where you were always – it was like expect the unexpected. And then enjoy it while you’re doing it.

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Peter Hook Talks About Ian Curtis

Ron Bennington: Well I also think there was something about Ian Curtis that you don’t get in most front men. That he could make people feel uncomfortable. That looking at him was an uncomfortable thing.

Peter Hook: He was very intense when he played. And I think one of the things that made me do the book was that I felt that people only dwelled on that side of it. And not dwelt on him as a person. And he was a really nice guy. Very generous, very chivalrous, courteous man. And he really did look after you. Even while he was ill, which was one of his problems, was that anyone was worried about it he would go out of his way to stop you worrying about his illness. I mean, it was like he wanted to bare it alone. He didn’t want to trouble you with what he was going through. And I must admit that the youth that I was, was happy for that cop out. Happy for that get out clause.

Ron Bennington: Yeah.

Peter Hook: When I was worried about him and I went to him and said, “Ian what’s happening?” He’d go, “Don’t worry about me. I’m fine.” That was all just bare daft, stupid horseplay. Let’s get on with doing what we’re doing because we want to make this band a success. And you’d be like, “Yes! Off the hook.” No pun intended. And that, to me, was one of his big problems – was that he didn’t want to upset you. That he didn’t want you worrying about him. And he went out of his way to make sure that you didn’t. Of course, because you were happy to glide over it. It doesn’t stop the guilt that you felt at the end. And the guilt that I felt when I came to look back at all the things that we’ve done, in depth, as I had to for the book. And say, “Aw shit.” You know, I will feel guilty about that till the day I die. But he’s not the only one. I’ve lost several friends to suicide. And you feel just as guilty about them. I think it’s one of the things, sad thing about suicide, is that the people who’ve gone have no worries. And everyone that is left behind has to put up with it.

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Peter Hook Talks About Where the Songs Came From

Ron Bennington: You’ve catalogued so many of these gigs. I mean it’s been put together – so much is your own emotion and some of it is what you get into. And you look at this and you’re like, “Man these songs were just coming one after another.” And you hate to call it magic, but there’s very little – you don’t have another term for what happened.

Peter Hook: I don’t have another. I don’t have another term for it. It really was a gift from God. From some higher power up there. When the four of us were together, it was so easy. And I think that was the terrible feeling you felt as not only had you lost your friend and your colleague, but it wasn’t easy anymore.

Ron Bennington: It’s gone now, something has left.

Peter Hook: Once he’d gone, it just wasn’t easy. And that period of you being in Joy Division was difficult because you were trying to help Ian. Trying to cope with his illness. But everything else was dead easy. Concerts were easy, fantastic performances. And I was looking at the list, and the co-author, who does the serious side of the book was going to me, “Well what was this gig like?” And I was saying, “It was great. Played really well. ““What was this gig like?” “It was great, we played really well.” Every single gig was great. When we got to New Order we had lost a lot, you know? Our reputation was very hit and miss for a long time as New Order to whether it would be a good gig, bad gig. It really did take the wind out of your sails, for want of a better description. And it’s always been difficult since then. It’s very odd, New Order has a very, very interesting history and again I suppose in a funny way, that’s going to be a very interesting book for me to write with what’s happened this past year. With the others reforming and virtually taking New Order from you with no consultation or consent. So it’s been very, very difficult. But it’s going to make a great book. And that’s one of the good things about being an author, is that I could look at these awful moments in my life, right? And go, “Oh, that’s going to make a great chapter in the book.” This is truly every cloud has a silver lining.

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Peter Hook on Ian’s Death.

Ron Bennington: Well one of the parts of the book – it’s phenomenal you had to deal with as a young guy – but here Ian kills himself and you almost immediately go into shock. You hear the news at dinner and don’t even share the news at first. You just shut down.

Peter Hook: Yes, and that’s the – it was the first time I ever heard anybody close to me die. I had never been through anything like that before. Maybe when I was younger, as a kid, when my Grandma died. Because I never knew my Granddad. But it was the first time and it really was shocking. And I think that we dealt with it in the best way we possibly could then. And the weirdest thing, you know, like for us to shut down on Joy Division the way we did. And put it all in a box, and lock it away, and put it in the back of the cupboard, and just leave it there, and say, “Right, well that’s over now. Let’s get on with New Order.” And we threw ourselves into New Order. And it was the healing balm. Concentrating on making New Order a success and working as hard as we did and the amount of changes we had to go through to compensate for Ian. And in a funny way, we never truly compensated for Ian, never. It’s always hanging over you like a cloud, what could have been. It’s a funny one really, and yet we’ve achieved so much as New Order. So much as people outside of New Order as well. So it’s a very strange situation to be in. But, yeah…

Ron Bennington: But just having that goal to carry on is maybe what helped you survive too.

Peter Hook: Do you know what mate? To be in one band that changed the world of music and popular culture the way Joy Division did, and then to do it again with two, and then to get The Hacienda on top. (laughs) We changed the world of clubbing and everything around that acid house, Manchester. We were in the right place at the right time on so many occasions. We were very lucky

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Ron Bennington: And it’s great, it’s great that you’ve written about it. The new book is “Unknown Pleasures: Inside Joy Division”. It comes out Tuesday, January 29 in stores and online at Amazon.com. Peter, so great to see you again.

Peter Hook: Nice to see you again mate.

Ron Bennington: And I’ll see you next time coming through.

Peter Hook: Hopefully, thank you.

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