Zachary Heinzerling Documents Cutie and The Boxer

zachary“Cutie and the Boxer” is a remarkable new documentary that captures the 40 year partnership of artists Ushio and Noriko Shinohara.  Ushio is an 80 year old “boxing painter” and his wife Noriko is also an artist.  The movie documents their work, their relationship and their creative spirit.   Zachary Heinzerling makes his directorial debut with “Cutie and the Boxer” and he stopped by the SiriusXM studios in New York to sit down with Ron Bennington and talk about the film  Excerpts from the interview appear below.

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Zachary Heinzerling Talks About Getting To Know The Shinoharas 

Ron Bennington: First of all Zachary, congratulations. I walked into this film not knowing a damn thing about what I was going to be seeing. And really, by the time it was over, I was so completely in love with this couple. It’s an amazing thing to take place. How long did you shoot them?  

Zachary Heinzerling:  Well, I met the Shinoharas in 2008. So, it was a 5 year project. But when we first started, it was a short film and probably more about Ushio’s artwork. And it really took awhile for us to become comfortable with them and for them to be comfortable with us filming. Ushio loves the camera. He’s been filmed his whole life. He’s obsessed with being watched. His art is all about performance. He’s constantly acting and the act is sort of his art. So, he wants the camera there. But Noriko was obviously a little bit more shy at first. But we suspected there was a lot more to her character, a lot more to reveal, a lot more layers. And after seeing her artwork and the breath of their relationship and where the tension was and where this resentment that would kind of crop up in their conversations – where that came from. So, it really became this journey of kind of figuring out how to expose that truth and expose the core of their relationship and what kept them together.

Ron Bennington:  At first you see him because the masculinity shines through and he’s so bigger than life. But then, you find yourself looking around him a little bit at this tiny woman and her much more delicate art. And by the end of it, I was thinking what I really want is for her to have a career – which I almost feel almost bad about saying that, but her art…seeing that she couldn’t have went there without a lifetime of this, that was the amazing thing to me. 

Zachary Heinzerling:  Yeah, what’s also interesting is that the whole time she’s sort of complaining about her life with Ushio and how terrible it was, but at the same time, it’s him that is the inspiration for her artwork.  Her artwork is about her relationship with him. And she says this – in order for her to really find something to make art about, something grounded, something where she feels like she could actually present it as if it’s her own voice, she needed that conflict or she needed him to sort of react against. And the conflict became the art. And I think it’s really hard for an artist to figure out what they want to say and figure out that they have something meaningful to say or something that they want to tell the public. And for a long time, she was either copying his work or sort of just copying other artists that she likes. She mentions Rembrandt and Caravaggio and was doing paintings in the style of them. Then she started turning it around on herself and looked inside and thought – where’s my conflict? And used that, and now she really has a voice in a way to sort of react against the thing that created the art which is him. Now she has a voice and she has something to stand on and she’s empowered because of that.

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Zachary Heinzerling Talks About the Shinoharas Complex Relationship

Ron Bennington:  The two of them and their marriage, just like any of us with our relationships, consciously we don’t know why we pick these other people. People to be in service to…you’re fighting and all, but it becomes, as you step back, maybe that is art itself. Maybe just the relationship between these people – that sometimes it’s ugly, sometimes it’s beautiful, sometimes it’s confusing. But after it’s been done over and over every day, maybe that’s what it’s all about. 

Zachary Heinzerling:  No, I think that’s well put. I mean some ways to me, their relationship is the art. And to me, the most interesting art is the art that you can’t quite understand. You can approach understanding it and you can see it from different angles, but there’s not really a solidified idea. It’s more like you’re getting closer to it. And with their relationship, you can’t ever really quite figure it out. But it works for some reason and it’s beautiful for some reason. The kind of the tone that it has – this kind of happy / sad feeling and being simultaneously cute, but also disturbing at some point is beautiful. And that becomes the art that you get invested in in the film.

Ron Bennington: Yeah, it works. And I mean there was probably no way that you were going to know that when you started this project. I’m sure you thought this was going to be about art, more than relationships. But she says a line in the film that just…it breaks my heart because it’s one of the truest things I’ve ever heard, is when she said – if you would have gotten rich, we wouldn’t be together. You would have went off and done something else. And I thought if you’re going to look at the history of men who get successful in the arts, whether it’s music, yeah, you definitely end up with somebody younger who fawns on you, whose body is a little bit stronger at the time. But this thing of the lack of success, has kept these people together. I think it becomes so much more interesting. 

Zachary Heinzerling:  Yeah, I mean Ushio was married twice before Noriko, had another kid who lives in Japan. And I think was probably on a path to do the same, but I think Noriko in some ways was a fighter and a perfect match for him. I think there were periods where Noriko would talk about early on when she considered divorcing him and Ushio would come back and beg for her forgiveness. And was really in love with Noriko and really didn’t want to repeat what he did with former wives. I think, yeah, that probably had to do with the fact that he had moved to New York and was living in a crazy loft in SoHo and was late on his rent. They would tell stories of basically, they didn’t have a blanket, so they would grab pieces of canvas and use that to sleep under. And this very romantic idea of the struggling artist in SoHo. But yeah, there was always something that always brought him back when things seem to be on the brink and always brought her back too. I mean if you look at it from her perspective, she also had so many opportunities to leave him. He was a drunk. He was clearly an egotist. And something about her moving to New York when she was 19 and also being in this totally new world and him being sort of being her form of education. For this new world that she was in with all these new artists, that’s where she wanted to be. And he defined her life.

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Zachary Heinzerling Talks About How The Shinoharas Reacted To The Film.

Ron Bennington:  How strange was it for them to watch this documentary? How did they react to it?  

Zachary Heinzerling:  It was a pretty nerve-racking experience because they hadn’t seen anything in 5 years of me….

Ron Bennington: …hanging out. (Zachary laughs)

Zachary Heinzerling:  ….invading their life. So yeah, we showed them the film. And I turned the TV off and there was an awkward pause and Ushio stood up and he looked at me and he said – so this is a love story? (laughs)  And I said – yeah. And he was like – (blech!).  And he just had this look of disgust. Then he proceeded to kind of tell me that I should lop off the last 30 minutes of the movie – which is basically where Noriko has her day in the spot light. And how there wasn’t enough of his artwork. And that it was too long and boring. He just had a lot of really small detailed criticisms. And Noriko would chime in and have like an equal or greater response to most of those in my defense which is nice. But Noriko loved the movie and really took ownership of it. And at every Q&A, talks more – just really is using this almost like more fodder and a weapon she’s using in their relationship. And Ushio has seen the movie now like 6, 7 times and each time has something more complimentary to say each time – and appreciates it as a piece of art in and of itself. That’s another idea that I talked about sometimes. The idea that you’re always nervous as a documentary filmmaker of making the quintessential film of someone and defining someone’s life and the moral quandary everyone sort of has with that. But with this film, it was always my version of their story, my film. And they could criticize it, but they would never ask for it to be changed. Because they’re artists and they understand when they’re creating something that’s their version of it.

Ron Bennington: Right. They understand. 

Zachary Heinzerling: And anyone could make this film and everyone would make something different. So, there are things in the film that they don’t really see, like Noriko thinks the film is too beautiful or that actually their life is harder and more difficult than it looks like in the film. And that’s probably me pushing the idea of the relationship. And any hint of intimacy or romance that I was trying to find – I was always trying to find that because that’s what I wanted to see. And Noriko would say – well, that doesn’t really exist. But in my experience, it did and that’s what I wanted to highlight and that’s the story I chose to tell. They both got that.

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Ron Bennington:  Congratulations to you. I wish you all the best with everything and I’ll see you next time coming through. 

Zachary Heinzerling:  Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

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Follow the film on Twitter @CutieAndBoxer

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You can hear this interview in its entirety exclusively on SiriusXM satellite radio.  Not yet a subscriber?  Click here for a free trial subscription.

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You can learn more about Ron Bennington’s two interview shows, Unmasked and Ron Bennington Interviews at RonBenningtonInterviews.com.

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